Tag Archives: Apostasy

Little Known Propaganda: 16 – Apostates Become Wrinkled and Black

5 Sep

This is my continuing responses to the list of “little known facts” referenced at the blog Sound Doctrine. On this blog the author presents the list along with responses to each from a F.A.I.R. Mormon scholar, known only as CleanCut. In addition the author of this blog, known as Damon, gives a response to CleanCut. As I said in my introduction blog, I am writing a response to each fact in a lengthy series. I will not, however, comment on what CleanCut or Damon said.

See also Fact #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12, #13a, #13b, #14, #15


FACT #16. Brigham Young claimed that those who leave the Mormon Church would turn “wrinkled” and “black.”

The following curse was pronounced by Brigham Young:

“. . .but let them apostatize, and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 332)

There have been tens of thousands of people leave the Mormon Church – Where are the “black and wrinkled” ones?


As much as some may hate to admit it, this is an actual quote from Brigham Young. However, I see no problem with it, when you understand the full context of his comments. This is truly just another example of the author twisting the words of great men in order to make it appear as if they are guilty of something they are not.

So, here is the full context of the quote.

I feel to bless this people, and they are a God−blessed people. Look at them, and see the difference from their condition a few years ago! Brethren who have been on missions, can you see any difference in this people from the time you went away until your return? [Voices: “Yes.”] You can see men and women who are sixty or seventy years of age looking young and handsome; but let them apostatize, and they will become gray−haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil.

Notice that Brigham Young is not speaking of just the physical characteristics of a person, but also of general appearance, or what could be called the countenance. Countenance is generally defined as “appearance, especially the look or expression of the face.” It is also true that Black has several uses, one being “boding ill; sullen or hostile; threatening.” This meaning is also used in the Bible by the prophet Jeremiah. He uses such phrases “For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I hurt; I am black” (Jeremiah 8: 21), “they are black unto the ground” (Jeremiah 14: 2), and “Their visage is blacker than a coal” (Lamentations 4: 8). Some of these refer more to sullen or gloomy dispositions, but they are still used to describe the attitude, or countenance of the person rather than their physical features.

So, Brigham Young is saying that those who live the gospel of God are blessed with good health and vigor, and that their very appearance is brighter. On the other hand, those who apostatize are not so blessed, but will show the signs of age more acutely, and their expressions and mannerisms will be sullen or hostile; or, in other words, black.


Now, the author points out that many people have left the church, and asks where the black ones are. But in doing so he is trying to force the reader into believing that Brigham Young used the term as a physical description, and not in the way he was actually using it.

On another note I will admit that Brigham Young uses the term wrinkled, but since he has specifically referenced those who are 60 or 70 years old, I think wrinkles are hardly surprising if one is showing their age.


Also, leaving the church and apostatizing are not exactly the same thing, as the author implies. Leaving is a simple falling away and disinterest. Apostasy is much more involved, and those who truly are apostates do tend to become very hostile to the church. I have met some apostates, and I would describe their demeanor and basic character as black, as their only real goal seems to be tearing down and destroying what they once believed. They have no real desire to bring others to believe in Christ in anyway. As long as they can destroy the faith that they have come to hate, that is all that matters. This is a black character, and these kinds of people generally show their age more acutely, largely because such hatred stresses the body and wears it out faster.


50 Questions: General

16 Apr

On another blog Tim has been writing answers to a series of questions asked by a Latter Day Saint named Greg Trimble. The list was titled 51 Questions That Might Lead You To Mormonism. So far Tim has posts 5 parts in his series, and I don’t know how many more it will take to answer all 51. However, in part 4 he mentions another list of questions that was made back in 2001. This was titled 50 Questions to Ask Mormons. So, I have decided to follow Tim’s example and make a short series to answer these 50 questions.

I will answer the questions in the order they are given and in the categories they are sorted into. Each post will be less than 1000 words, so only a few questions will be answered in each.

Read 50 Questions: Prophets, part 1; Prophets, part 2; Mormon Scriptures, part 1; Mormon Scriptures, part 2; Mormon Scripture, part 3; Mormon Scripture, part 4; The Bible, part 1; The Bible, part 2; The Bible, part 3; The Bible, part 4


  1. If having a physical body is necessary to become a god, how did Jesus become a god before he had a body?  

That would depend on the meaning of the word god.

The word is used to describe a being that exists in a state of Celestial perfection. To enter this form of godhood requires a physical body. Jesus was not yet in this state until after the resurrection. In Matthew, while still in mortality, Jesus says “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5: 48) Notice that He does not say that He is perfect at this time, but when He repeats this command to the Nephites, after His resurrection, He says “Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.” (3 Nephi 12: 48) In both these verses the word perfect, in Greek, refers to being “complete, finished, fully developed.” (See footnotes in Matthew 5.) Jesus was not yet complete or fully developed until after the resurrection.

However, the term God can be used as a divine title that is applied to the members of the Godhead, denoting their authority and power in Heaven. In this sense Christ was God long before this world was created, as He has stood at His Father’s side through countless eons as the second member of the Godhead and hold all authority under His Father over all things that His Father has made.

  1. Do you think the LDS Church will reconsider its teachings that the American Indians are descendants of the Jewish race now that DNA evidence has proven that they are actually descendants of the Asian race? 

Doubtful; considering that nothing has been proven, nor can it truly be proven. There has been far too much intermarriage, cataclysmic events, and acts of God for any mortal scientist to be able to prove anything.

In fact, the church has recently published an article on this very topic that very nicely explains how DNA can neither prove nor disprove the Book of Mormon.

  1. If polygamy was officially re-instituted by the Mormon Church, how would your wife feel about you taking another woman? 

You would have to ask my wife, but I doubt she would answer you. That is a personal question of ones own faith and is between them and the Lord.

  1. Since the LDS Church teaches that there was a complete apostasy of the true church on earth, does that mean that the 3 living Nephites and the Apostle John went into apostasy also? 

I have to wonder if those asking this question have actually read the Book of Mormon.

Mormon 8: 10 “And there are none that do know the true God save it be the disciples of Jesus, who did tarry in the land until the wickedness of the people was so great that the Lord would not suffer them to remain with the people; and whether they be upon the face of the land no man knoweth.

When the apostasy had gotten such a strong hold on the people the Three Nephites were removed by God. It is likely the same happened with John.

  1. Why are Mormon Temple ceremonies secret to the public when the Old Testament temple ceremonies were open to public knowledge?

Most of the Old Testament ceremonies were ordinances of the Aaronic Priesthood. The ordinances of this lesser priesthood have always been open to the public. Even today the ordinances that are performed by the Aaronic priesthood are open to the public, such as baptism and the sacrament.

It is the ordinances of the higher or Melchizedek priesthood that are held sacred and kept from the public. These are the mysteries of the kingdom, and have always been held reserved for the righteous followers of Christ. This is why they are only eluded to in the scriptures and not openly discussed. They were not meant for the unbelieving.

The Book of Revelation; Chapter Six – The First Five Seals

19 Mar

I have been doing a series of posts on the Revelation of John. In this series I have been comparing John’s vision with books with similar prophecies, such as Daniel, as well as section 77 of the Doctrine and Covenants, which gives interpretations to a selected portion of the images of the Revelation. I also rely heavily on the Joseph Smith Translation (JST – given in red).

Revelation Six

 In my last post I showed that each seal of the book that John saw represented 1000 years of the Earth’s history. This chapter opens the first six seals. The first five are very brief, but the sixth is much more detailed, and is continued in the next chapter. So, we will look at only the first five seals in this post.

First Seal (verses 1-2)

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

This is a representation of the first Millennium. So, it represents, approximately, the time that Adam was alive (Adam lived 930 years, Genesis 5: 5). The conquer would then represent the initial subduing of the Earth and the first cities that are described in Genesis and Moses.

Second Seal (verses 3-4)

And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

In the second Millennium we see war as peace is taken from the earth. This is the time just before the flood, which Genesis describes as “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6: 11) We have very little of the story of this period. Even with the JST very little is said. But I would think that, at least until the middle ages, there was not a period in the history of the world that was more violent and prone to war than this period just before the flood.

Third Seal (verses 5-6)

And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and hurt not thou the oil and the wine.

This clearly shows famine, or a lack of food production. This would be the third Millennium, or the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Egyptian captivity, and the reign of the Judges. Why would this time be represented with famine? In Genesis 12 Abram goes to Egypt to escape famine. Isaac goes to the King of the Philistines because of famine in Genesis 28. There was the great famine in the time of Joseph (Genesis 40-41). It seems the three greatest famines in recorded history were during this millennium.

Fourth Seal (verses 7-8)

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

This seal is usually referred to simply as death, and that is what is described. Death by sword, hunger, and wild beasts. This is the fourth millennium, the thousand years before Christ.  What characterizes this period is that amount of death that takes place. Empire after empire rises up to conquer the world, killing their enemies with the sword and with hunger. This was the first time where it seems that entire cities were being wiped out.

Fifth Seal (verses 9-11)

I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This seal is the thousand years after Christ (including Christ’s ministry). This was a time of great persecution in the church, as well as the beginning of the Great Apostasy. John sees the martyrs of the first centuries; those slain for their testimony. They are given white robes, a symbol of purity. They cry out for God to avenge them, but are told to wait until the time when further persecution would result in the death of many more of the faithful.

It may be that John is seeing only the early martyrs in the days of Nero, and they must wait until the further persecutions of Diocletian and others have occurred. In this case the little season would be a few centuries, and would place the judgements of God at the beginning of the Apostasy, and thus the Apostasy would be avenging their blood. This would make sense as God withdrew His spirit and for many years there was great violence and wars throughout the world. This is the millennium that saw the rise of Islam and the great conquering wars that those people undertook. Europe, and Especially the Roman Empire, could be seen to have felt the judgment of God.

However, John may be seeing all the martyrs in the first few centuries, which would make the little season the time of the Apostasy. That would place the fellowservants and brethren in our day, and thus refer to the persecutions that would come much later. If this is the case than the judgment that God promises would be that of the tribulations of the last days.


See also chapter one,  two, three, four, five