Tag Archives: Abraham

Little Known Propaganda: 6 – Plural Marriage in Heaven

9 Mar

This is my continuing responses to the list of “little known facts” referenced at the blog Sound Doctrine. On this blog the author presents the list along with responses to each from a F.A.I.R. Mormon scholar, known only as CleanCut. In addition the author of this blog, known as Damon, gives a response to CleanCut. As I said in my introduction blog, I am writing a response to each fact in a lengthy series. I will not, however, comment on what CleanCut or Damon said.

See also Fact #1, #2, #3, #4, #5


FACT #6. Mormons consider Polygamy a righteous principle which will be practiced in heaven.

Although there is nothing in the Bible that will support this thinking, current Mormon Scripture has this to say: “. . .if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery . . . . And if he have TEN VIRGINS given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery.” (Doctrine and Covenants 132:61, 62)


Well, before we continue, let us clarify the language. We refer to this doctrine as Plural Marriage, not polygamy. As it was never a practice for a woman to have multiple husbands, the appropriate term would be polygany. However, as the practice was, and should be, highly regulated, the doctrine of Plural Marriage is more restrictive than either of these terms suggest.


There are also other clarifications that need to be made regarding this doctrine. First is that it is not, nor was it ever a requirement for a man to have plural wives in order to attain exaltation. It is not a mandatory practice, but an acceptable practice. True, if God gives a man a direct command to take plural wives than that man in obligated to obey. But it is not a common commandment given to the general membership.

The author quotes from D&C 132, which is the most direct and complete explanation of this doctrine currently had. Little has been said regarding the doctrine since it was withdrawn from the saints in 1890. The leadership has simply focused on those things that actually matter in terms of our salvation. As it is not currently practiced there is no need for anyone to currently understand all the nuances and details of the doctrine.

However, there are a few things that should be noted in what we do know. First, as is quoted in D&C 132, for a man to take additional wives he must have the permission of his first wife. Truly, he must have the permission of all his current wives before he marries another.

It is also true that Plural Marriage is not the standing law. It is a law that God reserves for specific times and occasions. Thus, He can issue the command and retract the command as He chooses. This is made clear in the Book of Mormon where Jacob teaches if God “will…raise up seed unto [himself, He] will command” but we are to remain monogamous unless the command is given (Jacob 2: 30).


Now, let us look at what the Bible says. Of course, since no one else believes that marriage in any form will exist in heaven it is no surprise that they would not believe plural marriages exist. However, the claim that nothing in the Bible supports this is false. The real truth is that it all depends on how you interpret the Bible. If you interpret it the way most Christian do than you would never see this doctrine in the Bible. However, we do not interpret it as most Christians do, so we can see it all through the Bible. Granted many members seem to feel the need to deny the doctrine and will thus not see it in the Bible, but let me show you what I see.

First, I see a number of the greatest prophets to have ever lived living this practice. Abraham married Hagar when he was still married to Sarah (Genesis 16: 1-3), and then later married Keturah (25: 1) after the other two had died. Jacob had four wives (Genesis 29: 28; 30: 4, 9). Moses had two. How is it that such great men took many wives without God ever once chastising them for it?

Second, I see God revealing laws regarding the practice. For instance, if a man took a second wife he was still obligated to fulfill his duties to his first wife (Exodus 21: 10). Also, the rights of inheritance had to honored in the case of plural wives and their children (Deuteronomy 21: 15-17). Now, why would God give these laws if the practice was so horrible?

Of course, these show nothing regarding heaven, which is why I turn to my third observation; that God makes things for eternity. We read that “whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it” (Ecclesiastes 3: 14) and that what God hath joined let no man put asunder (Matthew 19: 6; Mark 10: 9). We also read that what is bound on earth by proper authority is also bound in heaven (Matthew 16: 19; 18: 18). Paul tells us that “neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 11: 11) Finally, Peter tells us that the husband and wife are “heirs together of the grace of life” (1 Peter 3: 7).


While I could site even more this is sufficient to show a clear Biblical doctrine. All of this testifies quite clearly that marriage is eternal; that as long as it is done through the proper authority it will stand forever. Since Plural marriage is an acceptable form of marriage, it too will stand when bound by the proper authority of God.


False Prophecies: Isaiah 11

16 Nov

This is a series of prophecies given by Joseph Smith. Each is listed on various websites as false prophecies. My purpose is to show how those claims are wrong, and that each of these prophecies is, in fact, true and from God.

  See also False Prophecies, Temple, Tremble, Civil War


Joseph Smith, history 1: 40

This will be a short post. Just like the prophecy of the Earth Trembling this supposedly false prophecy is dependent on an unspecified timeline. It is not commonly cited, but is included on the CARM site.

The passage quoted states the following:

In addition to these, he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty third verses, precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when “they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people,” but soon would come.

This references the entire eleventh chapter of Isaiah, but at CARM they only quote verses 6-9.

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Now, Moroni also references Acts 3: 22-23, but at CARM they only focus on this Isaiah passage. So, I will not quote Acts here.

At CARM they correctly point out that the animals are not behaving as Isaiah describes. However, they once again try to force their timeline onto the words of the prophets. About is a vague term, and when we are dealing with eternity it can refer to a very long period of time.

In fact, Peter tells us to “not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” This is confirmed in other places.

Alma 40: 8 tells us that

“all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.”

Abraham 3: 4 says that

“a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, [is] one thousand years according to the time appointed unto” this earth.

In facsimile 2, found in the Book of Abraham, we again read in the first note that

“One day [to God] is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth.”

All this tells us that we cannot rely on our calendars and perceptions of time to determine the fulfillment of prophecy. While we perceive a long time passing it is but a moment to God. So, when God sends a message that something is about to happen, we need see it from God’s perspective, not ours.

Because of this difference in perspective one cannot claim a prophecy false because it uses a vague timeline.

Response to CARM: Difficult questions, part 4

29 Aug

I have recently been pointed to a website called Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry as an excellent location to learn LDS doctrine. On this website they have many pages dedicated to what they call exposing the truth of Mormonism. Most of what they present is well thought out, and they use many quotes and documents to support it. When they are simply giving a list of quotes they don’t do too bad. When they try to interpret those quotes and explain doctrine they fail almost completely. So I am starting a new series in which I will address a selection of pages from that website.

This next page is titled “Difficult Questions For Mormons to Answer.” It is a series of questions that are supposed to stump members of the LDS church. There are 32 questions total. Most are followed by a few quotes that try to establish the subject in question. The first part of my response will be a comment on the quotes given, and this will be in green.

Now, since there are so many questions and responding to all of them will take a long time, I will be dividing this into many separate posts, each answering 1-3 questions.


Q. Why does the book of Mormon say that black skin is not “enticing” to God’s people in 2 Nephi 5:21?

A. The author quotes 2 Nephi 5: 21, as follows.

And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.”

It seems clear that the Book of Mormon says this because the Israelites in the sixth century BC did not, in general, find black skin attractive. As such, the Lord darkened their skin so that the Nephites would not be enticed into marrying and thus intermingling with them.

Q. Why does the Mormon Church still claim the book of Abraham is inspired Scripture when it has been demonstrated that it is not but is instead an Egyptian burial papyrus?

A. No quotes are given.

No one has proven anything, except that a few small fragments of ancient scroll were funeral text. They haven’t proven that these fragments came from the scrolls that Joseph Smith translated. They can show that they come from the same collection, but this is a far cry from saying they are the same scroll.

Joseph Smith had several dozen feet of scrolls in the collection. Eye witness accounts describe him laying the scroll out to cover the floor in the room where he worked. Less than one dozen feet survive, and most in small fragments (not even from the same scroll in all probability). Because of this it is impossible to prove anything.

Read this for more information.

50 Questions: Mormon Scriptures, part 4

6 Apr

On another blog Tim has been writing answers to a series of questions asked by a Latter Day Saint named Greg Trimble. The list was titled 51 Questions That Might Lead You To Mormonism. So far Tim has posts 5 parts in his series, and I don’t know how many more it will take to answer all 51. However, in part 4 he mentions another list of questions that was made back in 2001. This was titled 50 Questions to Ask Mormons. So, I have decided to follow Tim’s example and make a short series to answer these 50 questions.

I will answer the questions in the order they are given and in the categories they are sorted into. Each post will be less than 1000 words, so only a few questions will be answered in each.

Read 50 Questions: Prophets, part 1; Prophets, part 2; Mormon Scriptures, part 1; Mormon Scriptures, part 2; Mormon Scripture, part 3


22.  Why does the Book of Abraham, chapters 4 & 5, contradict Alma 11 in stating that there is more than one God?  

It doesn’t. Abraham speaks of the gods in reference to all those who exist in a state of perfection. Alma tells us there is only one God, meaning a supreme being that is worshiped by us on Earth. The word may be the same, but the meaning is different.

23.  Why does Doctrine and Covenants 42:18 say there is no forgiveness for a murderer when 3 Nephi 30:2 says there is forgiveness for him? 

3 Nephi 30: 2 is speaking to the Gentiles as a group, while Doctrine and Covenants 42: 18 is speaking of individuals.

A people, or a society, can repent of murder and be forgiven. That is, a society that had once excused or permitted murder without punishing it or seeking out those who are guilty, can repent and do away with such allowances. This is what is being admonished in third Nephi; that the gentiles in the last days need to repent of their allowances of sin or be condemned for it.

On the other hand, an individual that actually commits murder will have no forgiveness, at least not total forgiveness. The grace of Christ will still reach them, but will not raise them beyond the Telestial Kingdom, the lowest of the degrees of glory. They cannot receive full forgiveness, but God is still merciful.

24.  If the Adam-God doctrine isn’t true, how come Doctrine and Covenants 27:11 calls Adam the Ancient of Days which is clearly a title for God in Daniel chapter 7? 

This question is really asking why “Why do we interpret Daniel chapter 7 differently than others do?” To claim that ‘the Ancient of Days’ is a title for God is an interpretation of Daniel, not the stated meaning. It is not surprising that we interpret prophecy differently than other denominations. We have a much different, and much broader view as to the possible meanings of these prophecies.

25.  Why does the Book of Mormon contain extensive, word-for-word quotes from the Bible if the LDS Church is correct in teaching that the Bible has been corrupted? 

Just because some portions were changed over time does not mean that every passage in the Bible has been corrupted. The Book of Mormon does make extensive quotes, and these we know are not corrupted. It also makes extensive changes to the text we have in the Bible, which attest to the fact that the Bible was corrupted.

26.  Why do the Bible verses quoted in the Book of Mormon contain the italicized words from the King James Version that were added into the KJV text by the translators in the 16th and 17th centuries? 

The italicized words were added for the purpose of linguistics. A direct translation from one language to another (especially from different language families) would not have made much sense. So the translators added words so that the readers would understand the meaning of passages.

The Book of Mormon quotes the Bible, and, as is good practice, it uses the most correct English translation when doing so. As such, the italicized words are used because their use made the translation correct as to meaning. The people in America were already familiar with the KJV and so, again following good practice, the familiarity was kept as long as the translation was correct.

27.  If the Book of Mormon was engraved on gold plates thousands of years ago, why does it read in perfect 1611 King James Version English?

Because it was translated through the power of God and he wanted it to read in perfect 1611 King James Version English.

The Book of Revelation; Chapter Six – The First Five Seals

19 Mar

I have been doing a series of posts on the Revelation of John. In this series I have been comparing John’s vision with books with similar prophecies, such as Daniel, as well as section 77 of the Doctrine and Covenants, which gives interpretations to a selected portion of the images of the Revelation. I also rely heavily on the Joseph Smith Translation (JST – given in red).

Revelation Six

 In my last post I showed that each seal of the book that John saw represented 1000 years of the Earth’s history. This chapter opens the first six seals. The first five are very brief, but the sixth is much more detailed, and is continued in the next chapter. So, we will look at only the first five seals in this post.

First Seal (verses 1-2)

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

This is a representation of the first Millennium. So, it represents, approximately, the time that Adam was alive (Adam lived 930 years, Genesis 5: 5). The conquer would then represent the initial subduing of the Earth and the first cities that are described in Genesis and Moses.

Second Seal (verses 3-4)

And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

In the second Millennium we see war as peace is taken from the earth. This is the time just before the flood, which Genesis describes as “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6: 11) We have very little of the story of this period. Even with the JST very little is said. But I would think that, at least until the middle ages, there was not a period in the history of the world that was more violent and prone to war than this period just before the flood.

Third Seal (verses 5-6)

And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and hurt not thou the oil and the wine.

This clearly shows famine, or a lack of food production. This would be the third Millennium, or the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Egyptian captivity, and the reign of the Judges. Why would this time be represented with famine? In Genesis 12 Abram goes to Egypt to escape famine. Isaac goes to the King of the Philistines because of famine in Genesis 28. There was the great famine in the time of Joseph (Genesis 40-41). It seems the three greatest famines in recorded history were during this millennium.

Fourth Seal (verses 7-8)

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

This seal is usually referred to simply as death, and that is what is described. Death by sword, hunger, and wild beasts. This is the fourth millennium, the thousand years before Christ.  What characterizes this period is that amount of death that takes place. Empire after empire rises up to conquer the world, killing their enemies with the sword and with hunger. This was the first time where it seems that entire cities were being wiped out.

Fifth Seal (verses 9-11)

I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This seal is the thousand years after Christ (including Christ’s ministry). This was a time of great persecution in the church, as well as the beginning of the Great Apostasy. John sees the martyrs of the first centuries; those slain for their testimony. They are given white robes, a symbol of purity. They cry out for God to avenge them, but are told to wait until the time when further persecution would result in the death of many more of the faithful.

It may be that John is seeing only the early martyrs in the days of Nero, and they must wait until the further persecutions of Diocletian and others have occurred. In this case the little season would be a few centuries, and would place the judgements of God at the beginning of the Apostasy, and thus the Apostasy would be avenging their blood. This would make sense as God withdrew His spirit and for many years there was great violence and wars throughout the world. This is the millennium that saw the rise of Islam and the great conquering wars that those people undertook. Europe, and Especially the Roman Empire, could be seen to have felt the judgment of God.

However, John may be seeing all the martyrs in the first few centuries, which would make the little season the time of the Apostasy. That would place the fellowservants and brethren in our day, and thus refer to the persecutions that would come much later. If this is the case than the judgment that God promises would be that of the tribulations of the last days.


See also chapter one,  two, three, four, five

Articles of Faith: Eight

4 Apr

In my first post of this series I went over the origin and history of the Articles of Faith. I have also discussed Article of Faith 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. Today I will discuss briefly the eighth of the Articles, as given below.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

I have found that this Article of Faith is the one most criticized by the rest of Christianity. But, before we get into that let us again note the order, in this case the order of the Articles. We started with the foundation of God and what the gospel was, moved into the organization and authority of the church, as well as the gifts of the Spirit. Now we are dealing with where we have gotten our information, or where the truths of the gospel can be found.

The gospel is taught first, and always first, from the written scriptures that God has provided to us. From the time of Adam the prophets have written the words of God for the benefit of their posterity. Enoch used the record kept by those early patriarchs in his ministry. When Abraham left Ur he took with him those same records (Abraham 1: 31). When Moses was giving the Law it was in written form, and the record of the Law was preserved by the Priests as a means of teaching Israel. When Lehi left Jerusalem the first thing his sons were sent to retrieve was the written record of God’s words. The record is of the greatest importance in preserving the gospel among men.

So, why is it that many people criticize this statement of our belief in the Bible and the Book of Mormon as the written record of the word of God? There are two things that people mention frequently.

First is the fact that we do not believe the Bible to be perfectly preserved in its current for. We believe it as far as it is translated correctly, but acknowledge that, for whatever reason, some errors have come into it through the hundreds of years of its existence. This is blasphemy to the rest of Christianity as they state that nothing in the Bible is wrong, that it has been perfectly preserved, and to say anything to contrary is to deny God’s power. I am not going to get into a debate on this subject right now. The point is that we don’t hold this view. This in no way diminishes our love, appreciation, and use of the Bible. As I frequently point out we spend two years studying the Bible, compared to one studying the D&C or the Book of Mormon. The Bible is quoted more than any other standard work, and Joseph Smith himself believed it to be of such importance that he listed it as the first of all the scriptures.

Of course the second complaint many people raise is in the fact that we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. This is another blasphemy, as they will tell you that nothing outside the Bible can be the word of God. They also make the complaint that Joseph Smith did not add to this book the qualification of translated correctly. Of course the reason for this is simple. The Bible has gone through many hands, most uninspired men who attempted to translate and transcribe it according to their own reasoning. The Book of Mormon, on the other hand, was compiled by a prophet through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, drawing on the inspired writings of other prophets. It was then translated by a prophet through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. There has not been any opportunity for the uninspired to make changes that would result in errors.

Faith As A Child

21 Mar

I am frequently amazed at how little people seem to really understand what faith is.  They talk a great game, claiming faith, but very little in their words demonstrate any such reality.  This is true of people of all religions, but I will speak to those who are out there preaching on the evils of the LDS.  These people have explained faith in many different ways.

One man told me that faith is a gift from God and if I don’t have it than God has chosen not to give it to me, which seems to be what Martin Luther taught.  One has to wonder why he was wasting his time when God wass’t even bothering with us.

Another person told me that Faith is not to be without evidence; if you can’t verify the facts outside your faith you shouldn’t believe.  Thus, faith became a term for the acceptance of hard evidence, and thus not really faith.

However, it is not these definitions that I really want to discuss, but the nature of faith and the evidence of that faith in the lives of men.

I am a simple minded man in my faith.  I believe that if God commands then I must obey, regardless of my personal feelings or thoughts.  If, like King Saul, I am commanded to wipe out an entire nation of people, then I must do so, despite my complete abhorrence of violence.  If, like Abraham, I am commanded to offer my child as a sacrifice, I must do as Abraham did and, without question, obey that command, despite the fact that God has said that child sacrifice is an abomination.

You see, God is perfectly righteous and just, and thus no matter what He commands there can be no sin in obeying Him.  However, to disobey Him would be a sin, regardless of the command.

Let us go back to Abraham for a moment, for his is a story that demonstrates this perfect faith most clearly.  His story is used by all Christians to teach faith to others, and so is a fitting example.  It is in Genesis 22.

“And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempted Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.  And he said, take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

¶And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.  Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.  And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.  And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.  And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?  And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.  And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the alter upon the wood.  And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.”

This story has always been powerful.  Not only does Abraham not question the command, but Isaac humbly submits himself to his own Father’s will, believing his father to be a man of God.  Now, we all know that an angel of the Lord stopped Abraham at the last minute, sparing the life of Isaac.  But that ending was not known to either Abraham or Isaac.  As far as they both knew Isaac was going to die then and there as a sacrifice to God.  Can we imagine the thoughts of Abraham at this time?  Isaac was the promised son; the son of Sarah, Abraham’s first wife whom he loved dearly.  Isaac was to be the one to carry the covenant in the next generation, that through him the covenant made to Abraham might continue.  Abraham loved Isaac dearly.  Yet, God commanded Abraham to offer him up as a sacrifice.  Abraham could have questioned this command on so man levels.  He could have wondered how God was going to make Isaac a great nation, as promised, if Isaac was dead.  He could have questioned the covenant that Isaac was to continue in if Isaac was dead.  Then of course, there is the fact that murder had always been evil and commanded against, and yet God was commanding Abraham to perform such an act.  All of these things are legitimate concerns that any reasonable man would have.

But Abraham was not a man of reason, but a man of faith.  God had made the promises, and God would keep them.  Abraham likely did not understand how, given this command, but he knew God couldn’t lie.  Trusting that God was able to keep those promises, even after commanding the death of Isaac, Abraham obeyed, and what do the scripture say about his obedience.  “Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not kill.  Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.”  D&C 132: 36

And yet, in the modern day, faith like unto Abraham seems to be non-existent.  People are questioning too many things.  Just asking a Hypothetical, I asked on a blog what people would do if God himself appeared to them and commanded them to join the LDS church.  Some of them tried to explain the question away with “If he commanded that than he wasn’t God.”  Yet, could not Abraham have made the same claim, that God would never have given such a commandment, and thus it came from the wrong source?  But he didn’t.  He knew the source to be God, and made no attempt to explain it away.  However, as I pointed out to them, the question did not involve anyone but God.  The question was if it was God commanding, and thus this assumes that they know it is God giving the command.  Without exception the answer was no, they wouldn’t, because they didn’t believe the church to be true.  Without exception people declared, either directly or indirectly, that they would rather disobey God himself than join the LDS church, because they did not believe it to be true.  What does this say about the faith of the people today?

As for myself, I honestly cannot answer the question.  Turn it around and say that God commanded me to become Catholic.  What would I do?  I don’t know.  I know God has once again revealed his gospel and it is had only in the LDS church.  But, as I said before, if God commands one must obey.  Would I obey such a command?  I would like to think that I would, but until such time as I am so tested I honestly cannot say.