Lessons In Logic Response

22 Aug

I recently commented on another blog that was spreading false ideas about the LDS church. My comment was simple, listing a number of things that the author had gotten wrong. I merely gave the correct information, keeping each item short.

A few days after posting that initial comment I looked at the blog again. My comment was not posted, and the author had posted an apology that the comment had been accidently deleted. However, he still gave a response to my comments, though not in their entirety.

I then responded to what he said, accepting that accidents happen. However, my next three comments also failed to get posted, and that makes me a little suspicious. I cannot prove anything, but I feel the need to make my comment available to others.

Now, my original comment is lost as I did not save a copy of it. I have, to the best of my recollection, reproduced it here. I list seven errors that the author had in their blog. The error is in black, and is underlined. My initial response is given in green. The author’s response to me is in red, and my second response follows in blue. I also insert a few notes that I put in purple.

  1. “Joseph Smith was instructed by the angel, ‘Moroni,’ while in a cave.”

Moroni visited Joseph in his bedroom, not a cave. It may seem minor but let us get the details right.

“It was the mythical tablets that were found in the cave — but there is still a cave in this story.”

There is a cave if you call a box buried in the ground a cave. (JSH 1: 51-52)

  1. “Moroni told Smith that the Bible had been perverted, and that Smith had been chosen to restore it.”

Far from saying the Bible was perverted, Moroni actually quoted from it. What he told Joseph Smith was concerning the Book of Mormon.

“Mormons do not say the Bible has been ‘corrupted,’ but that it has been ‘mistranslated’…By another name, that is called corrupted”

If you had read my post you will notice that I never once said the Bible had not been corrupted. I said that Moroni never once mentioned this. The idea of the Bible having been corrupted came from the Book of Mormon, not Moroni.

  1. “Mormons believe that Adam is God”

No we don’t. We believe Adam to be Michael or the Ancient of Days, but he is not God.

  1. “Mormons believe that God (Adam), Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three distinct people.”

Again, you need to take Adam out of this as he is not God.

  1. “They also believe that people can become gods, they just have to achieve a high enough state of ‘enlightenment.’”

People must have sufficient faith. It really has nothing to do with enlightenment.

  1. “For Mormons, salvation comes by doing ‘good works,’ and the gap between what you do and what salvation requires is covered by Jesus.”

We believe that we can never earn our way to heaven. Christ paid the full price so that we, through faith and obedience, wouldn’t have to.

  1. “In other words, Jesus does not ‘pay it all’ for the Mormon, Jesus only covers that portion of the individual’s sin that they could not ‘work’ off.”

No one can work off any of their sins. We work, not to pay for our sins, but to repay God for the blessings he gives. Only Christ can pay for sins.

You may note that the author only directly responded to two of my objections. Rather than addressing the rest he decided to bring in more errors, which follow here.

A. “If we want to get ugly about it, there is also justification for sex with children”

If you want to lie about it than you can claim this, but there is nothing historical about it.

B. “Nor can he object to the fact that Smith said you have to have the ‘sacrament,’ by which he meant be polygamous”

He never said any such thing.

C. “One of many aspects of Smith’s teachings that Mormons have changed to meet our modern society.”

The doctrine has never changed, nor can you show that it has. In fact, you can still read it in D&C 132: 61-63.

D. “Deliberately ‘deceptive’ about what their religion actually teaches.”

The church has never lied or mislead anyone about our doctrine. Some of the finer points are not openly discussed, but there has never been any attempt to portray the doctrine as anything other than what it is.

E. “They’re trying to flood the Internet with pro-Mormon information. Of course, the problem with this is that the truth will not be told.”

The church is trying to correct the many false ideas and outright lies that are spread about our religion. The truth will never be found among the anti-Mormons because the truth would not help them in their quest to destroy the faith of others.

F. “It changes the meaning of the words and alters those ideas.”

Prove it.

G. “Instead of God being the eternal God, the Mormonism God is an exalted man from another planet.”

God is eternal, as is stated in all our scriptures and taught by all our leaders. (See Alma 11: 44; Moroni 7: 22; D&C 20: 17; 76: 4; 121: 32; and Moses 7: 35)

H. “Instead of Jesus being the creator of the universe (Col. 1:15-17).”

Of course he is the creator of the Universe, which is taught by all our scriptures and all our leaders. (see D&C 14: 9; Moses 1: 33; Abraham 3: 24)

I. “Christians need to…[defend] the truth and [expose] the errors of Mormonism.”

We have no problem with you discussing what you believe we have wrong, as long as you accurately portray our doctrine.

I also noticed that you made to correction to the false claim that we believe Adam is God. Since we do not believe this you might consider putting it in your list of corrections. Look at the following passages on this point: D&C 27:11; 107: 54; 116: 1; 128: 21; 138: 38)

Now, the author also lists a few websites that he claims contain all the documentation one needs to prove what he is saying is true. So, I have decided to check them out, and to start making posts regarding their content.


4 Responses to “Lessons In Logic Response”

  1. Black3Actual August 22, 2015 at 7:52 pm #

    I did not delete your comment. I do not do that. So I was as surprised as you to find your comment deleted.

    That said, you do not get to take an a la cart approach to God’s Word, throw in a little ‘you didn’t translate it correctly’ and then claim you have created the TRUE word of God. You have not. You have created a heresy, In this case, it is similar to that of the Gnostics, who also claimed a ‘hidden knowledge.’

    Truth be told, Joseph Smith has been utterly discredited, as has Muhammad. But you can claim you have to the true word all you wish. It does not make it so.


    • shematwater August 23, 2015 at 4:29 pm #

      I never made any accusations. I voiced a suspicion. You have to admit that having four comments fail to post seems odd.

      That said, I do not take an a la carte approach to the word of God. I accept all of it, including the word that he revealed to his servants who were not living in the ancient Middle East. you may want to restrict God on how much he can reveal, but I feel no need to do so. In fact, I welcome all new revelations that he sees fit to give to his children here on earth.
      The heresy is in limiting God and telling him that you don’t want anymore.

      Also, I am posting several responses to CARM, if you care to look at them. I already refuted their claim to a logical proof against the LDS church and doctrine, and I will continue to refute their claims.

      • Black3Actual August 23, 2015 at 5:22 pm #

        You see, everything you just said stands in opposition to the revealed Word in the Bible. That’s where I have a problem. If a ‘new’ teaching, as you call it, is ‘revealed,’ and it is counter to the Scriptures, then those Scriptures say we are to reject it. It is even to be accursed. So I am not limiting God, I am just obeying His Word by holding to what He has told me to do through His prophets, scribes and apostles.

        And no, you have not ‘refuted’ anything. What you have done is regurguitated your training, but as someone schooled in the formal use of logic, I can assure you, you have not ‘refuted’ anything. You’ve just rejected sound reasoning which — by the way — is something else the Bible says is an indication of false teachings.

  2. shematwater August 25, 2015 at 12:21 am #


    Did you read what I wrote? Of course I refuted the logical proof, because it requires us to ignore proven fact.
    However, if you want to discuss that more please post on that thread, not this one.

    As to the revelations and new teachings, what you say would only be true if they did not come from God.
    God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, which was counter to the command not to kill. Did Abraham reject the command. No, and he was blessed for it.
    The gospel as taught by Christ was very counter to much of what was in the Law of Moses (especially the sacrifices), but God revealed a new law, and thus the old one was done away.
    Now, the Jews at the time of Christ opposed him because they believed what he was teaching ran counter to the scriptures, which they knew very well. Yet Jesus told them that they did not understand the scriptures, and taught them their true meaning.
    Today, the Christian world, many of whom know the scriptures very well, oppose the LDS because they believe we teach that which is counter to the scriptures. We are telling you that you don’t understand the scriptures and are trying to teach their true meaning.

    The question is, will you be like the Pharisees who reacted in anger and sought to kill Christ and his servants; or will you be like the disciples who embraced the truth he taught.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )


Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: